Maybe if we didn't have such heated debates in front of newbies about languages, they mightn't get so scared.

I think we should agree on one language for newbies, and if they want to see a discussion about it, refer them back to here. ?

My sugestion : Java

RDD.. You know we'll never be able to agree on this.. Everyone here has their favourite beginner's language, and each of us believes that it'll be the best language for a beginner to learn..

Really, the idea is good, but it wouldn't work like that.. No, what we should do was to write descriptions of each of the languages. Their strengths and weaknesses (would have to have more than one person on each language, to properly find weaknesses).. And of course, the ultimate goal of the language, what would be a natural step afterwards, etc..

Then again, that's just how I see it.. Perhaps I'm just being pessimistic, and we'll all be able to agree on a language after all.. *shrugs*

Fine, we should make a table of languages in order of difficulty:

Stage One : Everyone suggest all the languages we want in the table.

Stage Two : Each person post the table in the order we ant to see it.

Stage Three : When The Thread becomes locked, I'll average the table out and voila; we have a democraticly selected and agreed on list of languages and what order to learn in. Each person has equal influence,and if you don't include you list, which'll take two mins to write(and save you hours of responding to newbies mssages), tough, and if you don't like the list that comes out, tough

Well.. That might work, actually.. Of course, I would personally have to put languages I didn't know properly at the bottom of the list, but I guess everyone would do that, so it would be fair enough anyway. :o)

We should just tell people to leave languages they don't know out of the list, then have two lists, one for popularity, and one for ease of learning.

On the ease of learning list, I'll find some way to give lesser known languages a chance and on popularity, its just how popular the language is.

PYTHON PYTHON PYTHON!!!!

html, stuff like that!
then..
python!
then..
java!

I think AngelOD's idea of having descriptions of the different languages would be wise choice. And possible ranked and order by stages as you suggested.
As for my choices,
Stage 1; Python
Stage 2; Ruby
Stage 3; C/C++

just list all the languages that we know of in common useage, then we'll arrange them into order of difficulty:

HTML
JavaScript
PHP
Perl
C
C++
Java
ML
SML
OpenGL(Is that a language?)
Python
Pascal
Assembly
Machine Code ;)
Please add to this list and then we'll arrange them into a difficulty list

OpenGL isn't a language, so strike that.. and I don't think HTML should be listed either.. I'm not too sure about JavaScript, but leave it for now.

Also, I can think of various forms of Basic (something I wouldn't recommend, but it's to make the list as complete as possible).

Yeah ... and Fortran ... So that Vladimir won't go furious when he comes back.

Delphi (I know its a form of Pascal

A form of? *giggle*

It *is* Pascal.. Object Pascal to be precise. :o)

Thus it can be decribed as a form of.

VC++ is a form of C++ (well an implementation, but who gives a shit?)

Back to the topic, any more languages, summision deadline is in 2 hours, after that it moves to stage 2.

Ruby as well as RPG, and COBOL can be added as well. Prolog, Smalltalk, Ada, AWK (Gawk), and Euphoria are some other languages too.
JavaScript is a programming language.

We've discussed this before

"programming languages and scripting languages are not mutually exclusive"

I'd like to learn PHP or Java.

Go Java

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0953931013/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/202-811...


- First Course in Programming with Java
- Tony Mullins
- ISBN: 0953931013 2nd revised edition

Brilliant Book, mind you, maybe not, if you can already program, it was my first step into 'real' programming.

Still, buy it anyway, its good.

HTML is a language?
Machine code?

I definently think the best thing to do would be to just have on the main page, our list of the languages and difficulty/description. I think they are hidden too well in the FAQ page.

What about ASP, PHP, JSP etc? They are scripting languages but they are fairly good for learning with.

Well, since not a single '@' guy has read this thread yet, we don't know where this list will go

-Rdd - Your representative for the BBMS political party - Bring Back Member Stats

I'm sorry regretfullblahblahblah, but that is a really dumb idea, some people are interested in programming stand-alone applications, others are interesting in database stuff and web applications, the language you should start with is different depending on what you are interested in doing

Rdd will do if you insist on not using RegretfulDayDreamer.

A Comment will go next to each language, so the list will help people decide what is easiest for their specific interest.

CodeRed; That's why I thought the idea of having descriptions of the languages would be useful.

Holy Jebus, 8 people on the boards right now, that's gotta be a record

they already have those...

Scheme, Scheme, more Scheme? The Scheme IG has links to a few good resources and I'm adding more now.

the best way to do this, now that I think of it, is to just do it the way we do now.

Yes, I agree, argue over it so viciously that the little punk never comes back

Which little punk?

I've noticed since I arrived by the way that the numbers logging on in every 24 hous has gone up from about 36 to 40 since I arrived here. And there where TWICE as many girls as guys on earlier, thats also got to have been a record:
http://www.mp3charts.4t.com/tpu.gif

Are you reffering to me or rdd as a "little punk"?

uuuuuh, he was refering to the one posters as 'little punks'

I think he feels threatened by me for some reason, and wants to start with me what he started with Gian.

God knows where all threatened by your sup3r l33t phurum w0ring.

If thats what you meant.

It is, but I'll stop being a forum whore after tommorrow, I promise.

Actuly, I think you have had somewhat of a positive affect on the forums.

I have?

OK

Heres the list of languages:

ADA
Algol
Assembly
ASP
QBasic
Visual Basic
C
C++
C#
Cobol
Component Pascal
Delphi
Eiffel
Euphoria
Forth
Fortran
HTML
Java
JavaScript
Lisp
Logo
ML
Objective C
Perl
PHP
PL/S
Prolog
Python
RPG
Ruby
Scheme
SmallTalk
SQL
XML

If you do not have experience in how difficult a language is, do not guess where it should go.

Order Your Items In A List As Follows
Hardest First, Easiest Last

Machine Code (1/7)(1)
Assembly (2/7)(2)
C++ (3/7)(5)
Java (4/7)(8)
Perl (5/7)(7)
JavaScript (6/7)(6)
HTML (7/7)(5)

In The First Brackets use the following(place in list/Total No In List)
In The Second put your Score Out Of Ten For The Language for your opinion on difficulty vs what you can produce.

Hopefully everyone should have their list submitted within three days

*The one above Is An Example, It isn't actually mine.

Why do you have machine code?
SQL?

Cause I went through the Google category and added anything under its 'languages' section that sounded familiar.

And then called it the final list?
SQL is a database program. You program _with_ it. And by machine code it is usually meant: programming a computer by building it with transistors.

It is, I thought it was where you just typed in 0010100011110100101101 and so on. I'm mistaken. Just ignore anything that doesn't fit the category "Programming Or Cripting or MarkUp Language", use common sense.

mop is wrong. rdd is right.

Isn't SQL a database program? You can program with it?

Any way : could we get back to compiling the list?

If SQL is a programming language then thats new to me.

Or do you mean I was wrong about the machine code? Isn't it the processor that interprets (such a horrible word to use in this case) the native assembly, with its inards?

WHY THE HELL are suggesting anyone begin programming in machine language?

Well since the chances are that no one here can proggram in machine language(no offense, but who would want to?) Then it has a very low chance of making it on the list, and if it does it'll almost certainly come as the most difficult language. And it'll have a lovely warning passage. And for those of you who didn't notice, when I first suggested Machine Code, I put a little ;) next to it. See go up. And it isn't actually on the list that you're to select from, I just used it in my example. OK?

I think all thats needed at most is elaboration in the FAQ, and maybe putting the 'I'm new to programming how do I start' link a little bigger on the front page for those people who are not signed in/up.

Maybe it is, maybe we could add this to the FAQ, on the other hand maybe not, but if we at least put together a list then we havethat information avaliable to us to use.

Is anyone gonna spend a minute to put this list together?

I need to know.. The "out of ten" number.. What would it mean? Does it mean, the higher the number, the better the language?

Yeah, thats a good point, if we're going to make a list we'll need to determine a way of organising the different languages. Such as by difficulty to learn, usefulness, purpose, or by some other way. But I do think this idea might be usful to neophytes.

SQL is a programming language (it really is, learn about some of its advanced features and see). There is actually a complicated mathematical basis for how it works that makes my head hurt (let's burn set theory).

OK

That "Out Of Ten" means

What you can get out of the language for the effort you put in and its ease of use.

For example you could write a program in C++ thats exactly the same as one written in assembly, but it takes far more effort to do it in assembly and it is far more difficult.

Once I have this list, then we can discuss how to arrange it.

I'm gonna arrange a different list for a couple of different Criteria:

?Easy To Learn?
?Ease Of Use
?Popularity

I think a description of each language will suffice for its purpose.

Scheme: really easy to learn and use but not terribly popular outside of school.

OK, please, lists, or I shall arbitarily make one.

1 Scheme
- easy, clean, high level and generally cool
2 Common-Lisp
- a bit more difficult than Scheme and not as clean
3 BrainFuck
- Easier than C++ but not as nice looking :)

Lamer is that list in order of hardest first or easiest first?

Here they are.. My list, from hardest/worst to easiest/best.

1 Java
- Well... Nothing fucks with the mind like Java does.
2 C++
- Nice language, once you figure it out.
3 C
- Faster than C++ usually, but without all the extra features. :o)
4 Perl
- Shudders.. Easy enough in some cases, but a hell to use in most.
5 Python
- It's just a really nifty system, though like other such languages, it lacks a proper compiler.
6 Delphi/Kylix
- Extremely nice, and easy to use RAD tool. Not at all useful if you wish to do console stuff, though, and I haven't used Kylix enough to say how it is for cross-platform development.
7 Visual Basic
- Annoying syntax in the long run, huge runtime files, but easy enough to learn.
8 PHP
- Simply the best language I've tried in a long time. Of course, working as a programmer on websites has made me biased.. Couldn't imagine using another language for web stuff, though. Haven't seen one better or just as good either.. Now all it needs is a proper cross-platform compiler, and it'll be really good.

Thanks, keep them coming.

I think it's interesting that everyone seems to consider machine language so hard to code in.

In the Electrical Engineering courses at the university I attend, the first programming experience students have is in binary & hex, followed by assembly, then C.

Low-level programming allows you to grasp the fundamentals of how a computer really operates without getting bogged down in the structure of a higher-level language; it's a very good experience to have.

Thats good, but I didn't know that anyone (apart from assembler/compiler makers) even knew machine code any more.

1. C++
- Easier to learn than Java, more widely used, and extremely powerfull (you can do just about ANYTHING in C++)
2. Java
- The wave of the future, I belive. Platform independancy is a major plus
3. PHP
- If you need to do web programming it's really the best option

Of course, I forgot what the hell this list is supposed to be about, so these are just my favorite languages

This list is for newbies and its meant to be

HARDEST first

EASIEST last

people seem to be ignoring this. The purpose of this list is to arrange languages into Easiest to Hardest, democratically, since we as a group could neer decide on one language to recomend to newbies.

why do yall post so many messages on these threads... why dont yall just go to the IRC.... seems like people post more since the stats are gone... thats weird....

I don't like IRC, I like AIM, or ICQ, but only when chatting to one person, not groups

My list was easy->hard. I wonder if anyone but me has ever tried Scheme or any Lisp or function language before? I think if you guys actually tried one of them you would realize how much better they are than C++ and Java. Scheme is nice and simple, but can do _really_ powerful things (e.g. you can implement an object system for Scheme in Scheme and it will be easy to use and feel just like it was part of the language). Being able to replace parts of your system on the fly is nice (all you have to do is build a listener or a file loader into your program somewhere and you can relink stuff). E.g. in my IRC bot you can use the loadscript command to load a script at any time, although there are a few issues if you do something like change a regexp in a hook (the old hook will still exist).

This isn't list but is more a little bit of information on some languages not covered [Please correct this stuff if it's wrong];

Ada- At one time the United States government wanted all it's military coding done in Ada.

Ruby- A language developed in and widely used in Japan, similer to Python. [Open Source, some MSWIN32 ports do exist]

Euphoria- Supposedly an easy to learn language, which can use either a compiler or interpreter. [Iterpreter is free, but Compiler cost 40$ US {I think}, avaliable for MSWIN32, Linux, and FreeBSD]

RPG- Mainframe programming language

C#- MS's screw on C [Or was it Java?].

C# is a bastardization of Java and C++, which are both evil mixtures of simula-67, C, and Smalltalk. I.e. crap.

That's all very nice, unknown_lamer, but are there any proper compilers for it yet? I mean, I like programming, and I like Open Source (or Free Software, or whatever the hell you wish to call it).. The problem is, however, that even if I make the source freely available, I'd like to be able to distribute binaries of what I do without having to rely on the user having a system already..

The best system that manages this, and is still an interpreted system, is Zope, but there has got to be a simpler way.. Right?

My short list as I am hungry (from easiest to hardest):
python- surprisingly powerful for its ease of use. Perfect for beginers. Not feasible for large projects, but possible to use.

PHP- Same opinion here, a great language. Easy to use, quick scripting, fairly simple, server side

Java- more advanced, but growingly better. Also has server side web processing abilities. Cross platformness is sexy.

http://www.scheme.com (bigloo Scheme compiler), http://www.plt-scheme.org (PLT Scheme with comes with a compiler), and http://www.ece.purdue.edu/~qobi/software.html for Stalin another good Scheme compiler (be warned though! Stalin uses over 200MB of ram to compile Hello World!)

OK, I think I'll abandon the arranged list but arrange the languages into five categories,
simple
easy
middle
hard
advanced

If you want to suggest which categories you want your language to appear in, do, but if you can't be bothered, it doesn't matter. And if you particually like a specific language (lamer comes to mind), and want to write an extended comment on it, please do.

Perhaps include the points
-What it is
-Whether it is mainly compiled or interpreted
-What it is particually useful for
-How long its been around
-Why you like it
-Anything else you particually think about it.

Scheme fits into all of those categories. The language itself is small and simple, but you can do anything in it making the programs difficult to write because the concepts are difficult (except the language isn't getting in your way like other languages do). Scheme can be compiled or interpreted, so you can open a listener and interactively evalute expressions to test some stuff out or you can compile your app for final use (if you have a Scheme system that lets you compiler; many of them do). Scheme is usually used for introductory college programming courses (I wonder why?...), so it is a good learning language. Scheme has been around since the late 1970s and is derived from Lisp and Algol so it has roots in even older languages (like every other language does). I like Scheme because I can do anything I want in it quickly. If you use a nice dialect of Scheme (my favorite is Guile) you can do stuff like Object Oriented programming in Scheme (using e.g. GOOPS) and everything else other languages do. If you really wanted to, you could always implement your own object system in Scheme (try that in C, and give it generic procedures that call the appropriate method based on the type of its arguments, now try to do it in less than a week).

I'd first like to say we shouldn't be teaching people HTML, should be teaching them xHTML and CSS.

Also, I think you need to seperate web programming and application programming into different sections, could probably do with a markup language section as well.

For writting applications, Ease of use

1. Qbasic
3. Visual Basic
4. C#
5. Java
6. C
7. C++
8. Small Talk
9. Assembly

For writting server side cgi
1. asp
2. php
3. jsp
4. pl
5. cgi (almost any other language)

(I left out some languages either because I don't use them or because they are scripting languages)

We should have HTML. Its so easy that it gives newbies confidence and teaches the importance of laying out your pages properly. We should put that you should spend a month or two exploring HTML, before you move on to programming.

This is going nowhere i See... everyone seems to have their own opinion.... I think this.. I think that.... AHHHHHH!!!!

Peoples opinions can be discussed in an article.

I like the way YPN organizes their submitted tutorials. There could be something like that?

Where'd YPN come out of, this is about TPU's programming advice ... we won't be unifying for several months yet.

uhh.. I was suggesting a feature that another website had

Umh. Should I write this up in an organised ashion yet?

Guess So

haha, don't you just like it when you get to ask a question and answer it yourself?

Ok ok, been gone for a while, so I just read all of this in one big confusing read. First of all RDD you contradict yourself earlier by saying organize from hardest to easiest, you then go on to say that the list will be from eastiest to hardest... sounds odd to me. Anywho write an article propose it and get it published... I thought you could submit an article at any time...? Also from what I remember when I was doing HTML it is NOT considered a programming language even though it resembles one (don't question me on it because I am just remembering this and cannot back up my claim). Unknown_Lamer sorry to say but scheme confused me when I was investing time trying to learn it (you remember I got the first few questions right but then it just went downhill) if anything I think that scheme should not be the VERY first language to be learned. I also have tried python which I did not have any real guidance in so I can't really give you an opinion on that... so you aren't getting a list out of me just ^ this ^

I'm writing it at the moment ... or when I get this Geography finished. Which might be a week or two. Or not.