Apropos to ideas about "set introductory languages" and what to do about IG's:

I think it might be nice to have a section of the site where information on languages is showcased. People can submit links to development tools, learning resources, and general language information. We would also allow everyone to indicate on some numeric scale his opinions on a) which languages are "best" overall and b) which languages are "best" for newbies. We could then automatically generate a "map" of programming languages, showing which ones we like best and in what order a newbie might want to learn them.

Responses?

I would add a "no experience with" choice. It doesn't seem very realistic to grade a language you have never used before.

I believe it's a waste of time. I don't know how such a thing would be more useful than IG (IGs are not very useful as they are).

Newbie will pick whatever programming language their favorite gurus tell them about or they will use Visual Basic.

This seems antithetical to the direction of the other thread.

Isn't there any article out there for people who want to start programming out there? Why not have a BIG LINK on the front page with NEW TO PROGRAMMING! CLICK HERE! or something. Then we can just get rid of em ^^

I don't think we should get rid of newbies. We should welcome them and help them in any ways we can. Newbies of today are geeks of tomorrow.

I just think what Psion proposed (a valuable idea otherwise) will be taken care of by newcomers on the site.

not trying to get rid of them, just trying to direct them on the right (or wrong) path ^^

We should direct them right here by whatever mean necessary (at gunpoint?).

taubz, this section would be a _minimal_ way of pointing newbies with self-motivation in the right direction, as well as letting us keep our favorite links in order and giving a place to air opinions on languages.

DragonWolf, why do you keep typing "^^"?

I think we should first define the common structures found in programming languages... most languages are laid out like this:
input
Get data from the keyboard, a file, or some other device.

output
Display data on the screen or send data to a file or other device.

math functions
Perform basic mathematical operations like addition and multiplication.

conditional execution
Check for certain conditions and execute the appropriate sequence of statements.

repetition
Perform some action repeatedly, usually with some variation.

I think if we follow this format... and apply it to each progamming language... then newbies can have a better picture of how programming languages and its syntax are use...

We are focusing on what we think newbies should learn or what they are interrested about. That's not a good idea.

Real newbies don't want to learn about he profound inner workings of programming languages (I'm pushing far but you must know what I mean), they want:

- Learn how to make a game like Quake in 15 minutes.
- They want us to do their programming class homework.
- They want to know how to hack their annoying brother...
- etc.

Everything here is fundamentally against what this site is about but there must be a way to catch the interrest of that people and bring them onto what learning programming is really about.

Thats how I started off as a newbie.

I want to learn the inner workings! :) btw I think that the "^^" is like to closed eyes (with imaginary smile).

What we really need is a tutorial "how to find and use a search engine and why you should"

I don't know of any marginally good programming languages that have "input," "output," or "math functions" as central parts of them. I think a language that needs anything built-in for these was designed badly.

the ^^ is shorthand for ^_^ or any other stupid anime face there of. I don't usually mean to put it in, it has just become a habit. I used to end every paragraph with a :O) as force of habit, it was pissing me off though so I stopped and now I've picked this one up instead.

I guess a comprehensive set of pages designed to bring newbies up to speed as far as how to get into programming would be useful. It would be a valuable tool for newbies and might work well as a team project (tho not programming, per se).

Perhaps a new thread should be spun off of this one seeking people who want to work together to put together an introductory guide, and then form a mailling list to get that going?

- taubz

My idea was an interactive section of the site that "builds itself" through submissions over time.

I think that would be a lot more confusing to understand for newbies than something "precompiled."

Yes!

If anyone is willing to participate into such a project (like the one taubz is talking about and like the one I proposed in another thread), I'll be willing to join.

Also, projects are useful for newbies even if they barely know how to code because it gives them the feel of what programming is about. That's why I'd like to make a project with newbies.

I'm suggesting something for newbies, not a project involving newbies.

I know...

But a project with newbies is another thing I'd like to try.

I think this leads back to the "We Should Have A Set Introductory Language" thread. Perhaps that's where to start. Basically a language with good support, good programming practice, easy to learn, and, ofcourse, freely available. Another factor to consider is on how many OSs it is available.
When the language is chosen, we could (try to) find a few volunteers to write (or find) a tutorial for it and add a few simple projects to it.

As I see it, hands on tutorials are best. Especially if they lead to a "usefull" or cool program.

"As I see it, hands on tutorials are best. Especially if they lead to a "usefull" or cool program."

That phrase is the key!

And I'm still working on that.

And we agreed we couldn't come up with one single language.

Instead I would write an article on selecting a language.

Once a tutorial exists, it's pretty easy to "convert" it to another language (explanations etc already exist, so one would only have to rewrite the code and do some marginal edits).
That way we wouldn't have to limit it to a single language (a lot of people already know some bits and pieces of a language and usually are alot more likely to continue with that than learn something from scratch)

It is NOT easy to convert between tutorials for languages that aren't mostly identical. C, C++, and Java are pretty much the same thing. Scheme, ML, and Haskell are completely different (and all superior to the previous ones, in my humble opinion :P).

If the goal is to write a tutorial for a "useful or cool program" then it should be possible. (Writing a tutorial for a language is something else)