I'm trying to learn a computer language but i can decide on which one some people tell me VB,C/C++, Delphi, Python but i dont know which one if you can please tell me what you reccommend, why, where could i get it and how much and if theres any software or books i would really appreciate it thanks.

If you have no prior experience, then all I can say for sure is it should NOT be C/C++, especially if you're just learning on your own. :-) So far as usefulness after you move on to more complex languages, I think Python might be your best bet.

For windows development try VB. VB is pretty easy to learn and use but chokes for a large app. there's plenty of VB material on the web. Once you've learnt VB and want to get bigger, then you could try Delphi and from then on to C++ Builder.

VB isn't good for teaching good programming practice, IMO. I'd start with QBasic. :-)

- taubz

Scheme or SmallTalk.
Both are freely available, and they're downright fun!

I'd have to say Python.

Qbasic is the easiest. But next to worthless on serious programs. Good to start with.(for the absolute basic stuff, loops and such)
Pascal. A little bit more difficult than Qbasic, but is better than qbasic, since you would learn programming in a better way, since you have to write structured code. This makes it easier to switch to C++ or any other "real life" language later.
C / C++ / C# Start with those if you're a masochist :o)
Assembler: Same as above, but worse.

If you have no experience at all on programming. You should try Pascal, or Delphi, which is Pascal for windows actually.
Qbasic can be tempting, but is a bad choice. It's problems aren't noticed by beginners, but you'll encouter those when your program becomes larger.

I can't write about the other programming languages since I only know these.

RedX
(spelling based on imagination).

Javascript is a very good step in between Basic and C... I found that the fact that it has only 2 datatypes, and yet has a syntax much like that of c makes it very readable and easy.

Python you smucks!

I found JavaScript to be very annoying, though. Arrays and output are both headaches. It's also a step between Basic and C++, since it's OOP - I'm not sure if that's good or bad. But, it does take no effort to get started with it.

- taubz

Okay, I'll give a little idea of what my steps were, which I found lead me through quite well. Basic was the first language I learn (since all I had was a Commador Pet, it was by nessesity rather than choice). Then Visual Basic (because it was available). Then I dabbled with C and C++ a little though nothing major... Every once in a while another language, such as Pascal was thrown in as that was a course I took in school.... My suggestion for a good transitional language from Basic to C/C++ would be Euphoria... check it out here (it's interpetated rather than compiled). http://www.RapidEuphoria.com there are lots of examples and even libraries included with it. Very nice hobby language... and some serious Apps have been created with it. Good luck.

I'm sorry javascript is not a friggin language, its a server/client scripting language.....that's why it has "script" in it, not language. Personally, VB is the easiest to learn, C++ is freakin easy too. Get a book, read 3 chapters, get online, dl examples, understand them, ask questions, and you'll be on your way, make up your own interesting software too, or else you'll be a lost 'lil boy.

Javascript is as much a language as C is a language.

Learning C++ as a first language is a dangerous thing. especialy for someone who hasn't programmed before. Unless you have a good book, someone who knows C++ and a good compiler. IMHO take your first steps in an easy language.
But learn C++ later, don't stick to a "toy"-language like qbasic.
(Qbasic can be usefull: I had 2 old mouses. Took the 2 cables of them, and made a improvised null-modem-cable, actually I just connected the RxD and TxD and GND, and guess what. Qbasic's OPEN COM stuff actually worked on this. Intersvr.exe and interlnk.exe (yes, DOS) didn't.)

RedX

Mmm, doing that and adding another computer, nibbles could be made four player!

C/C++ being learnt as a first language often results in that person haveing little or no idea on program structure, which is probably one of a programmers most valuable skills.

What do you disagree with?

Program structure is important, especially if you want maintainable code.

But we all know that little problem is eliminated when programming in Python! :)

I think you lost the point of your argument.

"Structure is more important in C++ than in any other language I can think of becuase spaces and new lines are not seen by the compiler."

This makes it more important?

"Anyway, my point is that your not going to magically come up with code in your head, your going to see it on web pages, in books, from friends."

I've lost your point as well.
Especially the part of not coming up with your own code.

... I'm sure by 'structure', he doesn't mean formatting. He means the design of programs, the aspects that are common to all languages. With C/C++, you get bogged down in lots of silly syntactical ideas that arn't really relevent to the base ideas of getting computers to solve problems. Not to say that C is useless, it's not, unless the aim is to teach someone how to use a computer to solve a problem.

Thank you Lordaerom, you explained me exactly.
CHollman82: How about instead of being generally negative, you just swalllow your pride, and shut up. Program structure means exactly what Lordaerom said, it is the ability to use your programming talents to effectively solve problems, not just programming because you can. Also, I believe what you are insinuating is that stealing code is better than writing your own, which I will not even begin to comment on. I was actually meaning to say something else in that post, but it must've slipped my mind, so I'll say it now. Often the kinds of people who learn C++ straight away (Not C, we must make the distinction, but I'll talk about that later) often think very, very highly of themselves (like CHollman82) and are very cocky about their highly over-rated talents (like CHollman82). People who straight away learn C (although the difference is small, it is important) have incredible talent, to be able to learn it straight off, whereas people who straight away learn C++ are often the trend-following braggers I'm talking about, simply because C is considered "obselete" and C++ is new and trendy.

To those I have offended with my statement(s):
Think of this only as a dream on a midsummers day, and also remember that this is a huuugggge generalisation, and is based on my observations of only a few such cases, CHollman82 being one of them.

Please, don't call me Sethard. I think everyone deserves a little respect and shouldn't be mocked.

You seemed to previously misrepresent your skills, in some other previous conversation we had about learning C++, you said that you learnt it straight away without any preious steps. If I am mistaking you for someone else, then I apologise. I'm sure it was during the Rick Berclay (or whatever) saga. I don't know your real skill, but I do remember you getting into quite a fit of bragging out of the fact that you were making a 3d engine or whatnot. Once Psion has finished erradicating the protesters in Tienamen Square, I'm sure he'll be along to bash one of us, so sit tight.

Gi-Gi, rather interesting analogy to draw about a self-proclaimed anarchism supporter like me. :-)

<dull psychologist-mode>
Learning C++ as a first language, without a tutor, is just another sign of puberty. Just like ride a car without a license or getting a tattoo with the name of your current girlfriend.
</dull psychologist-mode>

RedX

Analogy? None in that posting... I was actually making a comment more about your actions than you, more like the imperialistic treatment of yours truely.

CHollman, it's very like you to sit on the fence and watch fights, isn't it?

I'm sorry Psion, you are the coolest anarchist I know.

* Gian gives Psion a biiiiig hug

No, I will ruin your fun, then I will ruin you!!

Please note: This is a sarcastic comment, and is not meant to be taken seriously.

gian...you seem tense. not to mention rather vindictive. surely you cannot believe that you can draw a complete portrait of someone's personality and lifestyle from some rather misguided posts in a forum that tends to encourage ridicule of one another's abilities. not that i mind, tpu is fun. however, "i will ruin your fun, then i will ruin you" sounds like a comment from an angst-ridden, immature, mid-pubescent child that hides behind his keyboard in a vain attempt to build an online life of his choosing.......really, as fun as your comments are, you're pushing the envelope a bit today on the maturity scale.

sphinX: Heard of sarcasm? BTW. Stop bashing me! I will have to start retalliating soon...

Y'know what, I think CHollman82-bashing has gone far enough, and I'll stop unless he really, really asks for it.

gian: ok, point taken. i completely missed the tone of that message, i apologise.

CHollman82, I was refering to those kids who learn C++ just to be cool, just because everybody does that. And many of those haven't written more than a "hello world"-program in qbasic. And to make it complete, they believe that they don't need a book to learn C++.

damn I really should start write more clearly,
sometimes I can be a bit cryptic, because in the translation thoughts to words, I usually end up losing a couple significant digits.

RedX

I think web-based tutorials are a reasonable way to learn C++, or any other language, if written well.

Personally, I started off scripting every program I could get my hands on. Hypercard, director, logo, applescript(i'm a mac junkie)... then moved to C and javaScript. It was really useful because I learned how to do all the control structures first with fairly english-like languages, then started adding things a little at a time, ie data types, libraries, proper function use, OOP, etc.

As for web-based tutorials ... it's really difficult to find good ones. With a book, you can always flip to the index to find exactly what you're looking for. I have yet to see an online tutorial with an index.... "site map" type directories and tables of contents are minimally useful, but not as good IMHO. Also, with a slow connection, online tutorials are at a great disadvantage.

Books are easier to read and web-based tutorials have more and (sometimes) better contents.
(IMHO) A carbon based C++ reference is better than a electron-based. Especialy when you program in DOS.
Most of the other books can be replaced by tutorials.

RedX

Why don't you try doing your own research and finding a language that meets the needs you're trying to fulfill. And JavaScript is not a programming language, it doesn't make programs. Java is the original language. I'm sure thug appreciates your pointless bickering. Get lives.

JavaScript is very much a programming language. It doesn't form compiled executables, but you do program in it and what you program is a program. It just happens to also be a scripting language.

- taubz

Javascript:
A scripting language developed by Netscape to enable Web authors to design interactive sites. Although it shares many of the features and structures of the full Java language, it was developed independently. Javascript can interact with HTML source code, enabling Web authors to spice up their sites with dynamic content. JavaScript is endorsed by a number of software companies and is an open language that anyone can use without purchasing a license. It is supported by recent browsers from Netscape and Microsoft, though Internet Explorer supports only a subset, which Microsoft calls Jscript

As found on webopedia.com, Java was developed by James Gosling. Ask him.

While it's true that you cannot generate standalone executables using javaScript, does this necessarily mean that it doesn't help you to develop programming skills? I figured we were talking about learning here. Really, it depends on what our friend thug here wants to do... learn to program, or make stuff. If all he wants to do is make stuff, and then figure out what he wants to do, then heck I'd say start with some BASIC derivative. But if he actually wants to learn the fundamentals of what programming is all about, there are *tons* more options.

javascript is a programming language. You're just silly. Java has nothing to do with javascript except for the first 4 letters of the name. It was to be named LiveScript, but was changed. What you may be trying to say instead of 'javascript is not a programming language' is 'javascript is not java'.

If Javascript is not a language, then neither is ASP, JSP, PHP, Coldfusion, Perl, CGIC or almost any other web language you can think of!

I don't doubt the validity/effectiveness/usefulness of JavaScript as a scripting language. But like ASP, JSP, PHP, Perl, Coldfusion, and CGIC, that's all it is. A scripting language. In my opinion, JavaScript is one of the best cross-platform web scripting languages , but that doesn't make it effective as a programming language. If it doesn't make stand-alones, it isn't a programming language. I agree with part of what infryq said. Depending on what thug wants to do, Javascript, Perl, or other of the better scripting languages could be what he wants. But they don't necessarily teach good executable code techniques.

There's nothing that precludes you from writing a javascript to native executable compiler. You are wrong. A 'scripting language' is a programming language. A 'compiled language' is a programming language. You are wrong.

I would also like to add for the record that eternaldisciple is indeed wrong, both in his definition of programming languages and in saying that a compiled C program that happens to use the library cgic becomes a script.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/js/index.html?version5.html

Psion: Yes, I threw that one in to catch him out.

ed, what is the point of posting that URL?

I don't know either. Perhaps he thinks that stuff means it could never be compiled?

because, of couirse, only compiled language are real languages! (snork)

I Highly suggest ASSEMBLER, just DON'T use MASM, or TASM, use a simplistic yet easy to use assembler like ASM32 (get it at intelligentfirm.com) i highly suggest this one, you just program the assembler and that's it, non-case sensitive too!

Assembly is quite easy for someone with background in math or other things with rigorously logical frameworks.

About a year ago i went down to the local libery looking for a book on programming and i saw a book on basic and i thoght that sounds easy so i'd read that book then i went on to qbasic and after that pascal and then i treyd ams but when i saw the hello world program i thoght this is to hard so i went to c and then c++ and now in the age of 12 i am programming for windows in c++.
This way i think is a good way of learning how to program but every book i read starts all over so i'd have to read about loobs and other basic stuff agin and agin.
PrograPack.
(spelling based on imagination).

Loobs are hard to learn. Especially when your a beginner to sexually stimulating yourself through masturbation. Them Loobs are tricky, ie soap burns.

I suggest you learn to fuck, and forget the Loobs alltogether.

Soap burns? I never tried to light one. Does it remain flameable when wet? If so, shouldn't we put a warning sign on soap packets? Like "keep away from open fire" or "do not smoke while washing"?

RedX

Soap burns when it gets inside your "hole." (DUH!)

Of course.

Hmm.. What kind of soap are you using? Never had it burning me before. :P

Probably soap based on NOH (Natriumhydroxide) :-) .
Theory: Soaps are a <the opposite of acid, don't know the English translation>. These can do the same damage an acid does to skin.

RedX

English translation? What are you translating from, RedX? Guessing German...? But you're probably thinking of NaOH. (Na hence Natrium; N is Nitrogen. Of course in English we mess everything up and call Na sodium, don't ask me why) NaOH will turn the natural oils in your skin *into* soap if you get it on you, which is why your hands feel slippery if you've managed to get some on your hands, and is also a good sign you're in the middle of a chemical burn. Don't do that, it hurts. Soap I think stings becuase nerve endings don't like being exposed to stuff. Paper cuts are like that.

Base.

Whoops. Had to be NaOH. I haven't read the label for a while. (It's a developer for PCBs). Normaly I'm translating from Dutch. But the label of the NaOH is written in German. Also the opposite of acid in Dutch is base, I wasn't sure if base was correct.

RedX

Or alkalai....

NaOH? Thats sodium hydroxide! That burns when wet, yes.

Hi, I'm new! ; )

Learn Q-Basic and then work with PERL and THEN C or C++!!!

SKIP Visual Basic, all it will do is slow you down!!! : (

Oops, I just looked and saw that this message is from MAY!!! LOL!!!

-DeezNutz

I have to say that this sounds like a pretty good plan. I learned BASIC first myself, then C about 6 years later. :-)

Ditto, but can we retire this thread? :)

last thread... maybe... hehe... suggestion:

do a short course in programming... get a basic grounding in how they work, what they do, and what YOU can do with them... personally i don't have the money, but if you do, it's much easier, as you have your teacher you can dump all your questions on.

Sam

hmm...alot of ppl i came across does c for start and they get along fine...I started off c and am doing fine :)

c is very good.
i can suggest you a book.
LET US C
this book is written by yashwant kanetkar and is the best for C programming

ok......... (HMMMMs at cobbs)
was not saying that 'start with an assembler..!'. Sure C++ is the best. Have some asm after C... itz great. In the windows world.. VB is better for a beginner. But if you want to write a faster 'real windows' program.. use Win32 programing using VC++ or MASM. Windows API is easy to understand. i hate MFC.

But i started with 8085 assembly.

http://www.geocities.com/sparc32

I pity you... (ronybc)

If you flamed CHollman for saying learn C++ and don't flame this guy, you should be ashamed of yourself...

I like how he changes posts, instead of making new ones...

Another vote for JAVA. It smells good, tastes good, and
can be accentuated with many different flavours! JAVA,
GOOD for you, Good for me, JAVA.



Ryan

hehhhhh... kidz..
i just decided to to 'edit' my poor posting.

thank you......

Assembly is still the best language if you want to develope RSI.

RedX

CHollman82: That, or you're a masochist... but different strokes for different strokes. I prefer breast stroke, Psion, Butterfly.... and Chollman82... I won't say it, because it's illegal in some states :-)

Go for VB its extremely easy and very effective, Im using it now and I've made heaps of real cool programs. C/C++ is sorta out of date now.

HAHHAHAHAHAHAHH!!!!!!!!!! Oh my god!! I haven't heard anything as funny since I saw the Seinfield "I'm telling you for the last time" video.

Dre: When was the last time you say an OS written in VB... oh wait a minute... there isn't one!!!! When did you last see a decent peice of software written in VB, oh wait!! There isn't one! (Switching to BEDGE mode now) AND WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW ANY LINUX SOFTWARE WRITTEN IN VB?!! YOU HAVEN'T, BECAUSE THEY'VE NEVER EXISTED!!!!

You better buck up your ideas, laddy, or you're going to end up with a detention.

Ahhhhhh.... So much pent up anger released....

Hey, now, gian. I just spent my entire summer programming a very very good program in VB that will be used by hundreds of professionals in the engineering field. Don't go dissing VB programs. Diss VB, fine, but not the programs.

- taubz

well, now itz my time to pose :) (just kidding)
I started with VB at the age of 13 or 14, but to be honest, i pretty much sucked at that, and gave up after 2 months. Didnt understand a thing that stood in that so-called beginners book.
Then i started with Dephi at school, and a friend of mine and i teamed up to solve all the projects together and we RULED (at least in that class)!! (hehe...well we were pretty good.)
Then i got interested in programming and started to search the web for information. Soon i bought a book on assembly and C. Right now im writting on a 40-page document for my graduation....on Graphics/VGA programming in C with in-line Assembly...and this is where you guys can help me:

If you know any sites dealing with VGA programming please let me know by posting them. Im going to open a new thread on that topic...so this one won't contain anything that doesnt deal with "Which programming language is easier!?"...

*PredeX*

Not the actual coding, the documentation. And yes, one could easily write forty pages and more on something like that. Learn read!

I fail to see why CHollman always insists on bringing every topic back to himself....

Egocentricity, if you ask me...

True, true

check out www.3drad.com it gives results like C++ but is a hell of a lot easier

In contrary to polular belief I really think that C++ *IS* a good language to start with and end with.

If you really think C++ is too hard for you, try pascal, but whatever you do - never go to basic.

Why? Basic is a stepping stone.

*Visual* basic, on the other hand, is a leaf-covered pit.

With spikes at the bottom....

i thought the whole idea of a programming language being called basic was plainly for the fact that it is BASIC... correct me if im' wrong here

Yes... you are entirely correct, but Visual Basic is the work of sadistic evil people, with no lives and no real-world programming experience.

The same people who designed the Windows Blue Screen (TM).

RedX

Stop posting here.

* gian deletes multiple posts that add _nothing_ to our lives, and relly does nothing to answer the question, in the words of Psion, "Stop posting here."

Psion: But why??? Is there some kind of a hole in that web system that will make the passwords readable for every internet user if one MORE message will be posted??? If so then I`m sorry .... :P

You guys are going to force me or someone to code in a restriction on posting after a certain date.

Psion: put the most recently updated thread on the top and a limit to the number of threads on the page. That way the old ones will fall to the bottom and eventually dissapear. Maybe you guys should use vBulletin: www.vbulletin.com

No! I hate vbulletin.