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WAR!

Posted by CodeRed [send private reply] at March 22, 2003, 12:05:34 AM

What do you think about the war in Iraq? You all know what I think, I like seeing terrorists go BOOM (on their own land) :D

Posted by mop [send private reply] at March 22, 2003, 02:22:48 AM

Iraquis == terrorists?

Posted by buzgub [send private reply] at March 22, 2003, 03:05:59 AM

CodeRed: As I understand it, far more terrorists come from Egypt and Afghanistan than from Iraq.

The war is dumb. The American army is killing Iraqis. The Americans might have the death penalty, but this is like dealing out the death penalty to an entire nation, when there has been no trial and the presumption is of guilt. How can this possibly be right? It's murder, and there is no excuse for agreeing with it.

That's my opinion, at least. You're free to disagree.

Posted by CodeRed [send private reply] at March 22, 2003, 04:26:42 AM

Saddam's regime has been proven to directly fund the al queda organization, if you sponsor terrorists, you are a terrorist. Buzgub, I understand how you feel but we have only attacked military targets, our weapons are extremely precise. We treat the prisoners we take better than their own government, thats why over 10,000 Iraqi soldiers have already surrendered. On top of all that we are air dropping food and medical supplies into major cities to help the civilians. In fact, most Iraqis wave to American troops as they pass, they are glad that we are forcing Saddam out of power.

Posted by buzgub [send private reply] at March 22, 2003, 05:28:36 AM

I've seen no news of proof of Hussein's regime funding the Al Qaeda group. http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/01/30/1043804465839.html and http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/11/Iraq.Qaeda.link/ say that there does not appear to be any such link.

It is not military targets that are being attacked, as I understand it, but "government infrastructure". That means any buerocrat who might have gone to work early because there's a lot of work at the moment for some reason gets the immense privelege of being blown up by an american bomb. Be proud.

However accurate the bombs are, they're still going to fail sometimes. With the number of bombs in use, it is almost inevitable, and when they do fail it's impossible to know how many civilians they'll kill.

I believe the iraqi soldiers surrender has nothing to do with being treated well, and everything to do with pragmatism. Iraqi soldiers (many of whom I believe to be conscripted) are far outnumbered, by troops with much better equipment. There is one way to survive in this case: surrender. Humanitarianism has nothing to do with it.

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=iraq+humanitarian+aid tells me nothing about humanitarian aid being given, now, to the people of iraq. The absence of evidence is not prove of absence, I know, but this makes me somewhat suspicious of your claim.



I hope I haven't pushed too many peoples buttons with this :)

Posted by CViper [send private reply] at March 22, 2003, 06:17:46 AM

On one side I disagree with the war (war is never a [good] solution), on the other side Saddam has been causing problems for a long time now.

Another problem I have is, that the war seems to have many other reasons; I don't believe the only reason Bush wanted to remove saddam was out of "kindness" or to protect USA. There is/was no evidence (I heard of) that Iraq posed a threat to the USA.

Afterall, (a short) war is good for the economy, there are huge oilfields over there and Bush can use a few extra votes next election...

*stepping on alot of people's toes*

Posted by Psion [send private reply] at March 22, 2003, 07:16:37 AM

I must also chime in saying that most of what CodeRed has said seems to be of questionable truth, assuming that "alternative media" news sources are not inherently less credible than the corporate media. I entreat you, CodeRed, find the film "Killing the Children of Iraq," by John Pilger, and watch it. Maybe you can buy it with the money you make defying the software piracy laws of the government you love to tout when it suits you.

My personal position is that I oppose war and capitalism and pretty much everything that Bush likes and does. =)

(And I'm also wary of people like CodeRed who seem to have low enough self esteem that they try to boost it by connecting themselves in others' minds to symbols of "power," like homicidal militaries....)

Posted by RedX [send private reply] at March 22, 2003, 12:16:45 PM

CodeRed are you going to tell the Iraqi people with a seriouse illness they can't get their medication because of the war of the egos?
Bombs and guns aren't the only reason people die in wars.

"thats why over 10,000 Iraqi soldiers have already surrendered"
The source is an American news services? Never believe numbers in wars. Both sides will claim to be winning, just like every war before. (e.g.: Bush: we killed Saddam; Iraq: no, you didn't; Bush: Saddam was injured in the attack; Iraq: no, he wasn't.<crap about god helping them>; Bush:<crap about god blessing them>)

Note: There should be a law against presidents and Co to imply gods help in their war efforts. I'm pretty sure if god would help, it would be by replacing all their weapons by tools and removing their reproduction organs until they've rebuild everything they destroyed.

Posted by ItinitI [send private reply] at March 22, 2003, 12:36:44 PM

Yeah, I agree...Saddam has been causing problems for like 12 years, the Americans made him, so they need to take him out. Besides, it's not like Saddam and Uday are "good" people, if they did what they've done in Iraq in almost any other civilized nation they would would either executed or in prison for life.

I'm all for peace (^_^)V, but not fighting at all just doesn't work. You have to fight so you will not to fight. ["I fight so I will not have to fight" -Ginchi]
Peaceniks just don't get it.

LOL, I couldn't stop laughing when they said they might drop MOAB on Iraq! ie, that might be overkill.

But, I don't think the Americans need to be so hard on French, b/c if Saddam hadn't attacked Kuwait in '91, US would be in France's position now.

Posted by ItinitI [send private reply] at March 22, 2003, 12:40:06 PM

"The source is an American news services? Never believe numbers in wars." Haha, very true..."the Media is known for telling half truves and whole lies"

Posted by CodeRed [send private reply] at March 22, 2003, 12:52:13 PM

Live video doesn't lie, I saw thousands of Iraqi POW's eating their first real meals in a long time, laughing and joking with each other. I also saw on live video Iraqi civilians cheering as US marines tore down posters of Saddam. Turn on CNN, or MSNBC, or the BBC, they all have 24 hour live coverage.

"And I'm also wary of people like CodeRed who seem to have low enough self esteem that they try to boost it by connecting themselves in others' minds to symbols of "power," like homicidal militaries."

Having pride in your country is not a result of low self esteem, it is called patriotism, and if you can't find any in yourself I feel sorry for you.

Posted by ItinitI [send private reply] at March 22, 2003, 01:01:48 PM

Eh, yeah, haha, I saw one clip of them ripping the saddma poster down, and hittin it with their shows.
But what i meant, was that media have a tendancy to twist things around, but obviosly, live footage is correct [well, it coudl be staged, but i dont think so].

Posted by Psion [send private reply] at March 22, 2003, 02:34:58 PM

Live footage can be shown out of context. Particular favorable events may be shown, ignoring many more unfavorable happenings.

To ItinitI's more considered replies: No one denies that the situation in Iraq now is bad, and, like you said, no one denies that it is bad because of the actions of the United States and its imperial predecessor Great Britain. So why would you trust unilateral action by the USA not to make things worse? The people planning this are ruthlessly greedy and only looking out for their own interests. More appropriate action would be supporting the self-determination of nations and helping the Iraqi people revolt, but the last time those people tried that, the US military suppressed the revolution.

Regarding patriotism: Widespread patriotism and belief in a god are pretty much unique to the USA today. The USA government/establishment today is also rather unique in being reviled by most of the world, and also by a large proportion of informed US citizens. The attitude CodeRed says he's sorry I don't have is the same attitude that has driven the atrocious actions of the American elite that have damaged the qualities of life of people all over the planet.

You could try looking around at intelligent people and see how many of them think patriotism is a necessary quality and how many think it is a disease. I think you might be surprised how common the latter view is. People who like to think for themselves don't need the help for small minds that patriotism provides in dictating official thoughts.

You can find a nice article on the subject at http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/MiddleEast/TerrorInUSA/Patriotism.asp

Posted by CodeRed [send private reply] at March 22, 2003, 03:14:40 PM

Anyone who lives in the US who isn't happy with our government or our politics can leave, no one is stopping them. You know why they don't, because they know damn well they won't find it better anywhere else.

Yes, war is always bad, it would have been nice if this could have been resolved through diplomacy. We gave Saddam TWELVE YEARS to disarm, then, with the threat of war, we gave him several more months to cooperate with us, he chose to ignore us. We are not overthrowing saddam because he is a threat to the united states, we are doing so because he is a threat to his own people, to Kuwait, to Iran, to Israel, and every other middle eastern nation. He has used chemical weapons on 5000 of his own civilians, he has launched unprovoked attacks on Kuwait and Israel, and he has continued to develope weapons of mass destruction and the means to deploy them for over a decade now. He spends the vast majority of his countries income on military and weapons research, leaving little left for hospitals, schools, and other social services. The Iraqi people have been oppressed the entire time he has been in power, and that is why the vast majority of them support the United States in doing what we are doing.

Posted by CodeRed [send private reply] at March 22, 2003, 03:19:20 PM

Oh, and the US is not doing this unilaterally Psion, in additon to US and Brittish troops there are also Australian and French troops deployed in Iraq. Also, over 40 nations have vowed their support in this effort, and even more have pledged to aid in the reconstruction of Iraq. In fact, I don't know where you live, but there is a good chance your country has given it's support as well.

Posted by ItinitI [send private reply] at March 22, 2003, 04:45:32 PM

"I don't know where you live, but there is a good chance your country has given it's support as well."
His profile says "Pennsylvania, USA".

Posted by Psion [send private reply] at March 22, 2003, 04:59:10 PM

Replies to CR's paragraphs one at a time:

Your reason for someone leaving the USA is ridiculous. The fact that certain groups control areas of this land by violent force doesn't mean that they have any moral authority over me. If I'm _really_ committed to the country, I'll stay and try to make the society better, not run away.

I find it humorous that all of the things you've listed Iraq as doing to justify attack have been done by the US government. Honestly, the list you gave sounds like a satire a progressive columnist would come up with, only to reveal the punchline at the end. A little research will give you the details.

When you say "nations" support the American elite's plans, the actual meaning is that the _elites_ of these nations support the war. Surely you must have heard of the record-breaking size anti-war protests around the globe. World sentiment is definitely not squarely for this aggression, and it looks like sentiment is actually _against_ it overall. The fact that national "leaders" bribed by the USA or having connections to the same multinational corporations as GW & co. agree to support the effort means nothing.

Posted by ItinitI [send private reply] at March 22, 2003, 06:30:26 PM

Thank goodness for governments that take the initiative when the people are too stupid to.

But, plain and simply, tell me what exactly your objections to this war, and war in general are?

Posted by stilldo [send private reply] at March 22, 2003, 11:48:05 PM

the thing with this particular war is that the aggressor (da US) is attacking for the following reasons (at least, tthats how the aussie media reports it)

1. iraq may have nukes and chemical weapons
2. iraq is in cahoots with al qaeda (sp?)
3. saddam is a dick

PROBLEMS:

1. The usa has more than 20000 (TWENTY_THOUSAND) nuclear warheads, and has yet to explain how you use a nuke defensively
2. saddam and osama hate the guts of each other - one is a muslim fundamentalist, the other is a muslim because he says so (and rarely does so), and thats IT
3. george bush leads a country that executes people for crimes they committed when under 18 - saddam doesn't

Posted by CodeRed [send private reply] at March 22, 2003, 11:56:13 PM

"george bush leads a country that executes people for crimes they committed when under 18 - saddam doesn't"

No, Saddam executes his own people whether they commit a crime or not.

Posted by CodeRed [send private reply] at March 23, 2003, 12:00:01 AM

"I find it humorous that all of the things you've listed Iraq as doing to justify attack have been done by the US government"

I don't seem to remember the last time one of our presidents gave the order to use chemical weapons on a US city, but maybe I'm just forgetting, mind refreshing my memory?

Posted by Mycroft [send private reply] at March 23, 2003, 12:11:52 AM

It doesn't matter which news sources are correct and which ones are biased. It doesn't matter the true reasons and the cover up reasons why we are going to war with Iraq. What matters is that we are saving human lives. Soldiers are sacraficing their own lives to save people they don't even know, because they understand that politics is worthless, and that human life important. Any one who is against this war is for a regime which kills the innocent merely because they can. Don't spout off about the U.S. being evil, at least they are trying to save live instead of turning their back to the truth.

Posted by Psion [send private reply] at March 23, 2003, 05:32:57 AM

CodeRed, there was a high profile case in the 60's (I think) about a government agency testing biotoxins in some city subway system.... and there are plenty of other examples of testing bioweapons on citizens, including the nuclear bomb tests on soldiers, if you count that. (Since it was the radiation that caused the trouble.)

Mycroft, your "idealistic" view could make sense in some reality, but it's not this one. Some soldiers may believe that, but the people who control them are just out to grab more land, resources, and influence. Iraq won't be much of a better place to live when it becomes a US colony instead of the remains of a British colony.

Posted by regretfuldaydreamer [send private reply] at March 23, 2003, 07:40:49 AM

I feel I am ill placed to make a proper judgement on the Iraqi war... as I do not have access to any substantial amount of sensetive intelligence informattion the government does. Therefore I offer my cautious support to Tony Blair and the troops in the Gulf.

Posted by Mycroft [send private reply] at March 23, 2003, 03:13:58 PM

Psion, I'm sure this isn't the 19th century when the Middle East was controlled by the UK. And as far as I know Iraq will not become a US colony, the US will weild substantial power though. And I don't think a US controlled government will be doing this: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3284-614607,00.html. It doesn't matter what soldiers or officers believe, they are saving a group of people just by destroying a regime so they can "grab more land, resources, and influence" as you say.

Posted by RedX [send private reply] at March 23, 2003, 03:26:55 PM

"Therefore I offer my cautious support to Tony Blair and the troops in the Gulf."
That's exactly what they (the collection of people who form the government) want. You shouldn't. You should yell loudly in their ears and be an annoying prick to them until they provide you with the information you need to base your oppinion on.
If you just take their word for it, this isn't a democracy anymore, it'll be a huge daycare center: everybody being spoon fet pre-chewed things, while the caretakers take all the decisions in ways they believe to be in "your" best intrest.

Posted by CodeRed [send private reply] at March 23, 2003, 03:51:13 PM

Elected officials are elected because they are intelligent people, whereas the vast majority of the population are complete idiots, believe me I deal with them every day and I know I would not want any of them making important decisions.

"Some soldiers may believe that, but the people who control them are just out to grab more land, resources, and influence. Iraq won't be much of a better place to live when it becomes a US colony instead of the remains of a British colony"

You are obviously not very informed on the nature of this conflict. We (the US/Great Brittian) are NOT doing this to turn Iraq into a colony, in fact, after US soldiers put up a US flag in Umm Quasr they were ordered to take it down by their supperiors and reminded that we are not there as invaders but as liberators.

Posted by regretfuldaydreamer [send private reply] at March 23, 2003, 05:28:29 PM

And can I just say, that as far as I can see (of the close group of people I know, the most intelligent (and also the most stupid) support the war on Iraq. Those of average intelligence seem to disapprove of it. In my opinion, the stupid are following what the government are saying with blind faith, those of average intelligence are listening to scaremongers (George Bush is almost certainly not in this war primarily for oil to boost the American economy as many claim, I'll explain why some other time), and the intelligent remember that the "peaceful inspections" were originally set up as a trial, for a _few_ months to see if they would work. I think 12 years prooves they don't.

Posted by jay_dee [send private reply] at March 23, 2003, 05:44:44 PM

being an american, i am ashamed

Posted by Mike_L [send private reply] at March 23, 2003, 06:03:43 PM

On the subject of Saddam Hussein having "his own people" killed... wasn't it the Kurds that he had killed? As far as I know, the Kurds don't call themselves Iraqis, and they hate Iraq. So what Hussein did was more like what the US did to the Native Americans in the 1800s. You can hardly argue that the persecution of Native Americans was the oppression of Americans.

I believe that what Hussein did to the Kurds was wrong. I just want to point out the obvious fallacy of the "Hussein kills his own people" argument.

Posted by unknown_lamer [send private reply] at March 23, 2003, 06:08:08 PM

"Anyone who lives in the US who isn't happy with our government or our politics can leave, no one is stopping them. You know why they don't, because they know damn well they won't find it better anywhere else. "

Right, if you don't disagree, leave. Wtf is wrong with you?

And yeah, Jesus would kill people to get some oil. That's exactly what Jesus would do. So, remember Jesus is on our side and wants you to smite the heathen Iraqis into the depths of the Gehenna!

If Iraq has to disarm, why not the US? Since the US refuses to disarm I think someone should overthrow the evil regime here and forcefully take away our weapons.

Posted by ken [send private reply] at March 23, 2003, 07:40:45 PM

"What do you think about the war in Iraq? You all know what I think, I like seeing terrorists go BOOM (on their own land) :D"

____

That makes you just as bad and evil as the terrorists themselves.

Posted by jay_dee [send private reply] at March 23, 2003, 08:33:42 PM

I jumped into this thread a little late and most of what i feel has already been said. i am strongly against war. just a little FYI, the main reason the common people in Iraq are starving is because of the sanctions we put on them.
____

America is where the real terrorists are.

Posted by ItinitI [send private reply] at March 23, 2003, 09:01:45 PM

"the main reason the common people in Iraq are starving is because of the sanctions we put on them."

Americans _don't_ support terrorists. Unless the US is in control of Iraq, they have _no_ responsability over whether the people starve or not, that _should_ be Saddam's concern that his people [Well, inhabitants of Iraq] are starving. Howbeit, the American, UK, and Australia are trying over throw his regime so the Iraqi people will be free [including getting food].

Posted by CodeRed [send private reply] at March 23, 2003, 09:49:10 PM

"That makes you just as bad and evil as the terrorists themselves"

WRONG, the terrorists attacked us unprovoked, I want to see them gone so that they can't do the same to others.

Unkown_lamer, who the hell said anything about jesus? I am not religious, I am an atheist, I don't believe in any of that

"the main reason the common people in Iraq are starving is because of the sanctions we put on them"

And why do you think we had to put those sanctions on "them", could it be because we didn't want to give Iraq money to fund it's weapons programs? Do you really think that the money they would have made off the US would have went to the Iraqi people, don't be so naive

"Right, if you don't disagree, leave. Wtf is wrong with you?"

That doesn't make any sense, it is a double negative, WTF is wrong with you? I was saying that if you don't support the country you are living in then either SHUT THE HELL UP or LEAVE, because going out and protesting doesn't change anyone's mind, all they are doing is making a nuesance out of themselves and costing taxpayers money.

And another thing about the "huge" protests, about half a million people have participated in these protests in a nation with 300 million people, the fact is according to a recent poll conducted by CNN that 75% of the American population fully supports this war

Posted by Mycroft [send private reply] at March 23, 2003, 09:50:09 PM

All sanctions on Iraq deal with the blocking of supplies which can be used to create weapons, food is not blocked from entering the nation. Be sure to know your basic Iraqi sanctioning facts before you use them to try to mock the US.

jay_dee, don't you mean "all nations in the UN are the real terrorists", because last I checked it was the UN that passed any type of sanction and not the US.

Posted by ItinitI [send private reply] at March 23, 2003, 10:42:20 PM

"And another thing about the "huge" protests, about half a million people have participated in these protests in a nation with 300 million people, the fact is according to a recent poll conducted by CNN that 75% of the American population fully supports this war"

Another note on the "peace" protests...didn't the "peace" protest in Cali break out into violence??

Posted by jay_dee [send private reply] at March 23, 2003, 10:44:47 PM

oh sorry. I did some more research on the sanctions. My bad.
___

"if you don't support the country you are living in then either SHUT THE HELL UP or LEAVE, because going out and protesting doesn't change anyone's mind, all they are doing is making a nuesance out of themselves and costing taxpayers money."

Isn't one of the core values of America that we, as the people, have the freedom to voice our opinions? That if we don't agree with what our government is doing that we can protest and not be scared of being put to death? (now with the Partiot Act I'm getting scared)

What do you mean protesting doesn't change anyones mind? A few months back there was 10 of us in my small town who were openly aginst the war. Now there are at least 50 of us who attend protests in this area regularly. On March 5th over 200 students at my high school joined many other schools across the nation in a walk out protesting the huge amount of money being spend on war while something as important as education is suffering. What the hell do you mean they don't change anyones mind? Do you think MLK's protests had made any change in the world? How about Gandhi? Its groups of people who are not scared to stand for what they belive that make the changes in this world.

Posted by CodeRed [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 01:09:01 AM

"A few months back there was 10 of us in my small town who were openly aginst the war. Now there are at least 50 of us who attend protests in this area regularly. On March 5th over 200 students at my high school joined many other schools across the nation in a walk out protesting the huge amount of money being spend on war while something as important as education is suffering"

Yeah, and did we withdraw our troops and apologize to Saddam saying "We're very sorry but we are going to have to call off this war. You see, a handfull of high school kids in fuckton georgia who don't know shit about anything made some poor quality signs saying "no blood for oil" and we are affraid of getting them mad at us" Obviously not, and do you know why? Because nobody cares about what you think, there are two sides to every issue and there will always be people arguing both sides of any issue, you can't have it both ways. The only thing that matters is that our elected officials support this war, protests are not going to change their mind. I don't care if EVERY American civilian protests this war, we are not going to withdraw our troops and call it off, so get off the streets and get back in your fucking houses, because all you are doing is causing a disturbance, troubling our law enforcement officers, and costing everyone money in both lost efficiency and tax dollars. YOU are hurting YOUR OWN country for no reason.

Posted by jay_dee [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 09:38:23 AM

You know CodeRed, its closed minded people like you who make America the fucked up place it is.

Posted by RedX [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 10:24:05 AM

"I don't care if EVERY American civilian protests this war, we are not going to withdraw our troops and call it off, so get off the streets and get back in your fucking houses, because all you are doing is causing a disturbance, troubling our law enforcement officers, and costing everyone money in both lost efficiency and tax dollars. YOU are hurting YOUR OWN country for no reason.
"

Guess you're right. Democracy is such a waste of money. That's probably why all those countries with dictators are such a paradise to live.

Posted by regretfuldaydreamer [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 10:58:09 AM

I think one of the key points that made me cautiously support this war was an event a few months back.

A student snuck into some hall where Tony Blair was giving a carefully coregraphed education speach. The student started shouting and Tony Blair asked him to let him give his speach and wasn't interested in discussing the up and coming war at that point. After the student continued to create trouble (on live TV), after another minute security came to escort him out of the room. Before the student was escorted out, Tony Blair asked to say something to him:

"At least the thing about this country is that you can get up, and say that, and come out of it alive."

Everyone knows that Saddam brutally tortures anyone who opposes him on his policys (do _not_ give me "theres no evidence" crap, there is plenty of sustantiable(sp?) evidence). There's no opposition party and he is the only candidate in presidential elections.

Everyone has a right to protest against this war, and I have no problem with you doing so. All I simply ask you to do is:
-Consider the evidence against Saddam
-Remember that the weapons inspections were originally only on a trial basis.
-Remeber that the good soldiers of our countries are sacrificing their lives to give Iraqis the same freedom of speach that we have.

You know, the internet is only allowed to be used in Baghdad University for educational research. It's banned for the average person.

Posted by ItinitI [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 12:16:14 PM

"You know CodeRed, its closed minded people like you who make America the fucked up place it is."

Thank goodness for people aren't peaceniks.

Posted by Mike_L [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 02:14:04 PM

I think that a war would have been inevitable. The thing I disagree with is the US doing it outside of the UN. I believe that the UN is the World's best chance for peace, and that the US has really weakened it by moving with its own coalition. That is why I oppose the current war with Iraq. But at the same time, I respect and support the troops that are doing the fighting.

Disagreement with the decisions of the current administration doesn't make me unpatriotic. I love the United States and I think that it is a great place to live. Despite the mistakes it makes, I am proud to be a citizen of the United States of America.

Posted by gian [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 02:42:14 PM

I find it utterly hillarious this notion of "After 12 years of leaving Saddam to his own devices, lets march on in there because we have a good reason to believe he has weapons of mass destruction". George Bush has force-fed the entire world this notion of hostile nations out to destroy freedom (the idea of true freedom in most western "democracies" is actually a joke, but that's an entirely different matter) of other nations.

Unlike Mike_L, I have no pride in being an American Citizen at this moment. I believe that being able to watch something like this unfold without the assistance of CNN and ABC (read "state controlled media" =]) has led me not only to see the hillarious irony in this situation (which I'll get to in a moment) but also the injustice of it all.

Firstly, I find this entire situation funny (at least as far as it is appropriate to do so whilst people are being killed) that there is no mention of the CIA's involvement with putting Saddam Hussein into power. They put him there, now they are coming in to get rid of him. The same thing happened in Afghanistan. The American media nicely smoothed over the fact that the CIA put the Taliban in place and supported their regime for a long time - that is before they came in and toppled it.

Secondly, I can't believe that the USA has so quickly forgotten it's obligations to international treaties to which is a party. Most importantly (IMHO) is the Kellog-Briand pact which was signed by the US in ~1928. This pact, signed by 65 nations was a way of declaring war illegal except in a defensive capacity. My country of birth is an aggressor nation. Unlike Codered, I find it extremely difficult to conjure up feelings of patriotism from this knowledge.

With troops and tanks on their way to Baghdad, it's only a matter of time before the Iraqi chocolate factory inc. is, with the assistance of some creative interior design, magically transformed into "the Al Queda chemical weapons factory" by some US government division. The only way that this invasion will be able to be legitimized is if they find something, so there is no way that they will not.

Posted by CodeRed [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 04:14:46 PM

"You know CodeRed, its closed minded people like you who make America the fucked up place it is"

1. Because I disagree with your opinion I am close minded? I have looked at both sides of this issue, just as I would hope everyone arguing about it has.

2. Who said America is fucked up place to live? In my opinion America is the best place in the world to live, and yes, I have been to Europe, and Canada, and Japan.

Posted by CodeRed [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 04:27:13 PM

LOL, I just noticed this in my friends AIM profile:

"
Normally i don't comment on current events in my profile, but i feel that something needs addressing.

We are at War. We are trying to destroy a goverment that has supported terrorism, created weapons of mass destruction, threatened us with dangerous weapons, (ie dirty bombs, anthrax, i can name a million) has killed more muslims then we have (over 1.2 million i think, his own people), and has killed anyone he thought posed a risk to him. When we are sucessful, which we will be, we are going to start the largest humanitarian effort ever. I understand that innocents will die. Stop with the Anti war crap. What we are doing is right, we are helping them. It is pointless to protest, do something constructive. Listen to reason- people like you are the people who are responsible for 9/11. All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

Posted by gian [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 04:46:56 PM

CodeRed, in the present political climate, I wouldn't set foot on US soil. There are far better places to live. Places which actually implement democracy, and don't aggressively interfere with the internal affair of other contries (something which has been frowned upon since 1815).

The UN are the only ones prepared to actually clean up the mess that the USA is currently creating in the middle east, an organization which Bush considers redundant.

The interferance in internal affairs is the worst part. Why Iraq? Because there is oil there. Notice that even nastier dictators are left to their own devices? Myanmar, North Korea etc. They don't have a natural resource which Bush thirsts for.

There is yet to be any evidence that Saddam Hussein has ever produced or possessed any weapons of mass destruction. Why would he not have used them against the invading troops if he did have them?

This entire debate comes down to the fact that every country has its right to self-determination. Who is to say that the western way is the right way? Certainly not you, CodeRed. Forcing western values on societies that have no need for them is not only destructive, but the end result is terrorism and anti-american sentiments. The Arab culture has evolved for thousands of years into what it is today. The relatively new state of America with its ultra-capitalist values (which are yet to be proven sustainable) seems to believe that different means worse, and that everyone secretly craves a western lifestyle. That's not the way it works.

CodeRed, I suggest you stab an innocent Iraqi child to death while it sleeps and then tell me that war is justifiable. Acting as a proponent for an illegal war is just as bad. This war is an invasion. You seem to think that the American way of life is the right way, but how would you feel if China, Russia, France and Germany combined their militaries and marched into your cities and streets, just because your way of life differs from theirs? What if they bombed your government departments, your landmarks and police stations?

This war is not some fight against the greater evil of satan, as George Bush, a devout methodist would tell you. It's an assualt on a religion, a culture and ultimately, on humanity.

Posted by ItinitI [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 04:53:22 PM

"In my opinion America is the best place in the world to live, and yes, I have been to Europe, and Canada, and Japan." Really?! To you, how is US a better place to live then those places?

Posted by Mycroft [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 05:34:06 PM

gain:

By democracy do you mean a non federal gov't where only one agency makes decisions for an entire nation, such as the UK with its parliment? I want aware that was democracy where the average person can't have their voice heard in the gov't.

The UN is a tool of the US, we pay 25%+ of the UN budget, it is an agency which the US uses to justify its actions and when the UN doesn't the US merely does what it wants.

I doubt the only reason Bush is going after Iraq is because of the oil, why not venesuala which is on the verge of revolution if it was about oil plus we wouldn't have to deal with the middle east. This is not a war over oil.

I don't know if you have been reading/listening/watching the news but the US and UK forces just found a chemical weapons plant, so there is your proof about weapons.

The whole reason we are going to war is to make sure "stab an innocent Iraqi child to death while it sleeps" doesn't happen. All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. All the "western" nations of the world have the power to stop the killing and torture in iraq but only a few are actually doing it. That is more nobel then doing nothing, you have no right to mock the US or any coalition nation for trying to help people.

Posted by ken [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 05:55:05 PM

"WRONG, the terrorists attacked us unprovoked, I want to see them gone so that they can't do the same to others."

____

What do you mean un-provoked? Do you mean to say the terrorists just went out, found a globe and decided to spin it around 5 times and indiscriminately just chose a country, which happened to be the US? Then, decide to send out people who've they've chosen to risk their lives, learn to fly and hijack a plane and ultimately crash it into the world trade center and do it a second time after that, to it's twin tower.

Oh yes. They would do all of that, unprovoked.


"There is yet to be any evidence that Saddam Hussein has ever produced or possessed any weapons of mass destruction. Why would he not have used them against the invading troops if he did have them?"

____

There is no denying the fact that he does have weapons. The UN spent all that time attempting to disarm them.


""You know CodeRed, its closed minded people like you who make America the fucked up place it is"

____

I would have to disagree with that statement. He is just promulgating his own opinion, and though it may be harse, odd and disagreeable you don't have to state something like that. If you really do think that though, I would use that term against you than rather him.

"Who said America is fucked up place to live? In my opinion America is the best place in the world to live, and yes, I have been to Europe, and Canada, and Japan."

____

That is strictly of opinion, however I have lived in both Canada and the US. In my opinion, Canada is a much better place to live in since it is
1. Less crowded
2. Less polution
3. Less fat people
4. Nicer people
5. Less violence

The US is also destroying neighbor countries like Canada with it's acid rain and polution. That hole in the Ozone layer is much of the US's fault.
The US does have it's good things though like bigger cities, more attractions, more rich people, better schools and technology.

Posted by gian [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 06:10:54 PM

"The UN is a tool of the US, we pay 25%+ of the UN budget"

Where the hell did you get that figure from? The US has had a long-running dispute with the UN and owes huge amounts in dues. Besides, the US has adopted an isolationist policy since before the second world war.

"I don't know if you have been reading/listening/watching the news but the US and UK forces just found a chemical weapons plant, so there is your proof about weapons."

As I said in my earlier posting, it would be impossible for them to *not* find a chemical weapons plant! They need to find something in order to legitimize this otherwise entirely illegal invasion. The same tactic was used during the Vietnam war. Give yourself a vague pretext for military action and then synthesize it once you've achieved your real objective.

I suggest you read http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0303/S00082.htm for Fidel Castro's excellent views on this matter (Psion's link).

And also, as I said before, I believe that Bush is actually fighting some sort of holy war here. There is no way that you can destroy 2 islamic nations in the space of 18 months and still "have nothing against your culture".

Posted by CodeRed [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 06:25:04 PM

Ever hear of Occams Razor Gian? If not it states: "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is usually
the correct one" Now, which is the simplest solution, that the US military staged an entire chemical weapons factory and ALL of the weapons found by the weapons inspectors over the years, or that Saddam, a ruthless, aggressive imperialistic, dictator has actually produced these weapons? Besides, I find it hard to believe that the US staged the chemical attacks on Halabja in 1988 that killed over 5000 Kurds. Chemical weapons ARE weapons of mass destruction Gian.

Posted by ken [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 06:27:01 PM

"I don't know if you have been reading/listening/watching the news but the US and UK forces just found a chemical weapons plant, so there is your proof about weapons."


____

The chemical plant didn't even have any deadly weapons in it! It practically proved nothing except that they had, or could of had weapons on their land, which we already knew beforehand!

"And also, as I said before, I believe that Bush is actually fighting some sort of holy war here. There is no way that you can destroy 2 islamic nations in the space of 18 months and still "have nothing against your culture."

____

He has always been involved in this holy war. He decides to protect Israel against all the Middle East, which is practically throwing yourself in harms way.

"This war is not some fight against the greater evil of satan, as George Bush, a devout methodist would tell you. It's an assualt on a religion, a culture and ultimately, on humanity."

____

George Bush is an idiot. He hasn't even served a full term in as president and has already gotten the US into 2 wars, all of which he has been on the offensive. What is he, Hitler?

Former President Clinton actually made an attempt or few attempts to make peace and friends with country leaders.

Posted by CodeRed [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 06:28:39 PM

"Really?! To you, how is US a better place to live then those places"

Well, I like Japan, if their language wasn't so hard to learn I wouldn't mind living there, but I know nothing about their politics, economy, etc.

Posted by CodeRed [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 06:31:37 PM

"George Bush is an idiot. He hasn't even served a full term in as president and has already gotten the US into 2 wars, all of which he has been on the offensive. What is he, Hitler?"

The war on Afghanistan wasn't optional. If he didn't react to that attack as he did he would have had mobs of unrully citizens on his hands, and I would have been among them.

Posted by Mycroft [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 06:37:09 PM

I get the UN funding data from the US budget, media reports, and the UN's own reports. The US likes to think of its self as isolationists, but I don't thik the nation that uses more money in forgein aid then any other country is really an isolationist.

Ummm, I'm not sure if you're aware that the vietnam war was part of a containment policy and had nothing to do with weapons and more to do with politics. The Vietnam war was not a war, and any war there is a draft is an unjust war.

I'm sorry, I can't tell if you're serious about the whole fidel castro thing.
-------------------------------

The chemical plant probably didn't have anything in it, Iraq isn't gonna leave out proof against them, they aren't stupid(about that at least). Don't judge if they have weapons or not until you've seen it all, you don't want to make an ass out of yourself. The scud missles they are currently using are breaking the UN resolutions from 1996, so they do have illegal weapons.

Holy war!?! are you serious, religion is dead, he may have a vendetta against the middle east or terrorist housing nations but it is no war against a religion. Get serious, religion ain't important any more, terrorists proved that.

Posted by CodeRed [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 06:50:28 PM

Yeah, Mycroft is right, religion is bullshit, it is not the motivation of any action of western society, for that you have to look to the almighty dollar, but I still don't think this war is about oil

Posted by Mycroft [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 07:04:57 PM

Hey, I'd just like to thank everyone who has praticipated in this discussion/debate, I am enjoying it and I hope everyone else is too. Its great that there are enough people in our community with beliefs they are passionate about that they can debate over. I've learned from this thread and I hope everyone else has. A one sided discussion would suck, and you can gain nothing from it.

Posted by CodeRed [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 07:14:05 PM

Yeah, and I'd like to thank Gian for finally chiming in with some original arguments for the anti-war side instead of the same old stale recycled arguments that I have heard a million times in this thread ;)

Posted by gian [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 07:27:58 PM

"but I don't thik the nation that uses more money in forgein aid then any other country is really an isolationist."

Bwahahah! The US spends the smallest proportion of it's GDP on foreign aid of all the developed western countries.

Mycroft, I was entirely serious about the Fidel Castro thing. There are many of us #tpu regulars who do not accept US government news as gospel (I think that makes us terrorists or something). Fidel Castro has come through as a voice of reason in this situation.

"Get serious, religion ain't important any more, terrorists proved that"

What on earth are you talking about? I believe most "Muslim fundamentalists" are called thusly because they embrace an extreme form of Islam. Of course, there are extremists in every religion, and I just happen to think that George Bush is one of them.

Posted by Mycroft [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 08:15:39 PM

We do not use the smallest proportion of our GDP on foreign policy, most countries don't even have foreign aid programs.

I don't know if you have actually heard Fidel Castro speak but he isn't quite there, I had the pleasure of hearing him on two occasions though it wasn't in person. He would start talking about an issue then ramble off onto something else, usually baseball. I don't think he is the best person to be quoting. This is not a character attack on him, it is merely a fact.

"Muslim fundamentalists" say they are following the word of Allah, but I have numerous Muslim friends who denounce terrorists as not following their religion, only using it as an excuse to preform their acts. They are more outraged about them then the average non-Muslim. Terrorists are the only ones who say they care about religion, but yet they still kill their own people, they kill anyone because they are part of the "great white devil" no matter the religion. Most people in the US aren't very religious, socially religion has gone out of style here.

Posted by gian [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 08:21:59 PM

Mycroft, for the sake of everyone else reading I will repeat this only one last time.

1) Castro wrote that URL I posted. That URL I posted is good (IMO).
2) I said muslim fundamentalists. If your muslim friends are not muslim fundamentalists, then their opinion really doesn't count. I do not claim to know WTF the KKK is on about despite being a white male.
3) Mycroft, the US elected a deeply religious president. Religion is still somewhat in fashion there, I think.

Posted by mop [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 08:55:41 PM

This war seems like a very inefficient way of putting a person out of power, I think just a few assasinations here and there could put stuff reasonably straight. Of course, that's a thousand times easier said then done.

And of course, then you wouldn't have all of the delicious oil.

I really do not think that you need to send in a whole army, which kills just about as much of itself then the enemy does to decimate a population so that some batshit insane ruler in Iraq can't make any more batshit insane decisions.

I don't think a war is the right way to solve this, and leaving it alone certainly isn't as well.

Posted by Mycroft [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 09:50:33 PM

I'm saying that castro isn't that great of a source of information, i think he maybe insane but I'm no doctor.

Muslims are not like Christians are about religion, if you are Muslim you are deeply into your religon while the majority of Christians think of themselves as one when they go to church. It is a very different culture so I wouldn't compare them. Most Muslims are Muslim Fundimentalists. And don't mix race with religion, White is not a religion nor is Muslim a race.

Deeply religious is relative to your culture, and having a deeply religious political leader does not mean religion is in fashion still. The average American could care less that he is deeply religious.

Posted by gian [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 10:33:33 PM

You fail to see the point here. I am still trying to make out that Bush's religious leanings may have a serious affect on his judgement of other religions in this case.

And don't let Psion hear you talking about Fidel Castro in that way. The man is infinitely more intelligent than Bush, and for some reason you don't consider Bush to be insane.

Posted by ItinitI [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 10:45:12 PM

Castro? He's a dead man walking...That goes for _all_ the Red Stars.

Posted by stilldo [send private reply] at March 24, 2003, 10:46:26 PM

Mycroft: (all the way back there...)

the only reason you would ever train a soldier, and give him a gun, is to kill someone. all these people volunteered to join the army. they all volunteered to be, effectively, murderers. murederers in the US get the death penalty. so: the people they kill are dead and shouldn't be. the soldiers are then the ones who deserve to die (by US dogma). how is that justice?

BTW, gian - dubya is a "devout" methodist. only he breaks the commandments he lives by. that makes him a hypocrite.

but i agree with you.

Posted by Justin_Hale [send private reply] at March 25, 2003, 12:35:39 AM

[Wow. Justin posted something long enough to make the server hang serving this page. I've put it up at http://www.tpu.org/justin.txt . In the future, I ask everyone to post reasonably sized messages! (Yes, I know it shouldn't hang, but remember that I don't plan to use this web site system for more than two more months.) -Psion]

Posted by Psion [send private reply] at March 26, 2003, 07:07:37 AM

If you want to reply, please do so in the WAR^2 thread.

Posted by whizkide [send private reply] at March 28, 2003, 04:57:50 PM

unknownlamer:"If Iraq has to disarm, why not the US? Since the US refuses to disarm I think someone should overthrow the evil regime here and forcefully take away our weapons.
"the world seven nuclear powers are all signatory's to the nuclear disarmament treaty which prevents them from developing new nuclear warheads. So eventually the us will disarm. imagine what the world wwould be like if the us got rid of all its nukes. well, russia and china would probably rename the new world-> the lost world by dropping a couple of nukes.
so,should iraq be bombed? dunno abt that but if i hear on the news that saddam was killed last night, ill wont be caught spilling any tears.
why cant everyone be preoccupied with their programming woes and leave the world at peace.
whizzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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